Maybe covered already, but does anyone else have concerns about the new measures that have been introduced to allow the police to issue points and fines for poor driving that was previously not covered and had to go to court? Fines and points for lane hogging has predictably taken most of the public interest, and cynical as I am: I expect that was used deliberately to smokescreen or sugar wrap a bunch of changes that would otherwise have been received very negatively on their own. BBC News - Lane hogging and tailgating on-the-spot fines in force Driving too close to the vehicle in front Failing to give way at a junction (not requiring evasive action by another driver) Overtaking and pushing into a queue of traffic Being in the wrong lane and pushing into a queue on a roundabout Lane discipline, such as needlessly hogging the middle or outside lanes Inappropriate speed Wheel-spins, handbrake turns and other careless manoeuvres I do a lot of things every day on the bike that could easily be described in the list above, but present no danger or inconvenience to anyone. This list seems to largely cover activities that are annoying to other road users and not necessarily dangerous? I see lane hogs every time I drive on the motorway, but I can't remember thinking it was dangerous, just annoying when I had to slow down. I have seen near-accidents around lane hogs, but other people were actually dangerous driving and speeding, and would have caused accidents regardless of the person lane hogging. I can't say I have ever been in a near accident situation down simply to a lane hog. Surely penalty's (especially points which insurers use to increase profits) should be issued to discourage behavior which is dangerous to other road users, rather than behavior which is largely just irritating to other road users? All of this so-called dangerous driving was previously covered and punishable before these changes anyway, except the courts decided on the evidence whether that was actually dangerous driving likely to cause an accident, or not. This made total sense, because these are all potentially grey areas. But now the police can issue fixed penalty points and fines on the spot, based on their judgement alone. hmmm...
It's not hard. If you're not overtaking something, get out of the overtaking lane. Don't drive up someone's arse. Don't drive like a knob. Follow these massively simple rules and you won't have a problem and the roads will be a nicer place to drive.
I suppose its cop discretion in the end and a nice little earner. The bonus for us is that hopefully this might clear up the woeful act of lane hogging ''Going to sleep whilst driving'' and of course the use of mobile phones (Texting ) whilst driving which we all hate .
Too many vehicles on the road ? Lets get rid of so many license holders. Not making enough money from cameras ? Lets find some other way to make some. Taking cops away from catching proper criminals ? Money earned justifies ignoring petty theft and breach of the peace reports. And from that list, do non curteous drivers who wont let you into queues also be fined and penalised, just for being non curteous ? Someone in the wrong lane ? Oh dear how shocking. Whatever next, someone in the wrong gear ? Listening to the wrong radio station ? Police state in full effect. Not long now until we have to be in before dark or be shot.
More worrying is the "flash to crash" scam that is gathering a pace.........are we going to get more paranoid either in a cage or on the bike when occasionally another road user shows a little courtesy....I for one where convenient would always flash to allow someone to turn right or enter traffic flow, especially so a two wheeler obviously. We're all doomed Captain Manwaring
It will be interesting to see how this plays out over a period of time..ie will fixed penalties rocket or will the Police just target the worst offenders? I don't think any of us disagree that lane hogging, tailgating etc are wrong, but this makes the Police not just gamekeeper by judges as well, and any chance of being able to disagree with their opinion will get you no where. IMO, I think we are going to see yet another extension of the ticket writers guild going into overtime, long gone are the days where a well trained traffic cop will pull you over for a little chat and advice... its all about numbers and revenues, they have become basically traffic wardens in high powered cars and bikes in terms of meeting targets.
So many people seem to be surprised about being booked for hogging the middle lane as if it is something new, but I was booking these inconsiderate morons years ago for Careless driving, or to be more specific, driving without reasonable consideration for other road users which is a sub section of careless driving. This is not about the possible offences that motorists might commit, it is simply a change in the way these offences are enforced. Bear in mind, (and providing there are sufficient Police patrols) it is not going to be your average plod who books a driver for one of these offences, but an experienced traffic cop, and it has nothing to with KPI's or numbers of fund raising or anything else, it is about making these mindless morons think about their driving and "Possibly" making them more considerate. Centre lane hogging and tail gating has always been and remains one of my pet hates, which is why I booked so many when I served, and unless you have worked full time on a Motorway, the majority of people have no understanding or comprehension of the problems centre lane hoggers and tail gaiters cause. So some may consider it to be subjective and down to the opinion of one copper, and to those individuals I say, Get real and smell the roses and maybe learn how to drive or ride properly yourself before making comment!" There was an article on the news last night, and I was amazed at how many people said that they sit in the middle lane, even though lane 1 was empty I was the guest speaker a few weeks ago and the subject was raised and I was asked for my opinion. I threw it back and asked them what they thought the Highway Code said, and the number that responded that it said Slow, fast and overtaking was astounding. 99% did not realise that lane 1 is the driving lane and lanes 2 and 3 were simply overtaking lanes, and then I pulled out a few pictures of Motorway crashes I have dealt with over the years which have occurred as a result of drivers hogging lane 2 and it made a few people take notice and a few cringe. The same with hand held mobiles. The number of people I see with a phone glued to their ear, which is not only a giveaway, but also causes a physical reduction in the control of their vehicle, and yet for 5 or 6 quid they could get a Bluetooth, but they are quite happy to put themselves and others at risk by continuing to use a hand held, not to mention that it is usually these morons who are the first to moan when they get caught and fined! Sorry, I will get off my soap box now, rant over
Now I hate middle lane hoggers as much as anyone else as well. But I don't think I would be writing them tickets and dishing out points for it. Wild it not be more beneficial to have them attend a driving awareness course ? And if so many accidents are caused by lane hoggers, does that mean that other drivers don't know how to overtake safely ? As an ex cop mate, you are bound to say that it isn't about KPI's and so on. And while that might not be the case at traffic cop and PC level, I can imagine that is a very different attitude to the high heid yins further up the tree. It is interesting to see it from your point of view as an ex cop though, so thanks for sharing. I wait with baited breath for bans of in car radios, talking to a driver and smoking while driving as well.
Without wishing to enter into a debate or argument then, you dislike centre lane hogging, which causes in some cases to undertake (which is not an offence) which in turn can and does cause crashes to occur (especially with bikes) but you would decline booking someone for the offence of centre lane hogging which is an offence under section 3 of the road traffic act. Sorry, but I do not understand your reasoning. Send someone on a driver safety course, and they will simply pay lip service because they feel that they are beyond reproach and (in my experience anyway) it does very little to change a drivers attitude or behaviour, they still remain lazy morons!!!! You are right in your observation, a lot of drivers have no idea how to overtake properly, either on single carriageway roads or motorways, mainly because drivers do not like to be told that what they are doing is wrong, and they were or have never really been taught properly in the first place. And as far as KPI's are concerned, well I was never subject to them anyway, but bear in mind that in the UK we Police by consent (Citizens policing fellow citizens) unlike many countries where it is a paramilitary type organisation, but because we police by consent, it also means that there is the power of discretion, and a b@llocking is often far more effective than a booking (and less paperwork ) You have to bear in mind that (and I include myself in this statement) 99% of traffic coppers have done every course going, gained vast experience, but have got fed up with spending hours down the mortuary or at a post mortem, or clearing up splattered brains as a result of someones moronic driving, and one of the reasons why even now I am still allowed to give expert evidence of opinion (unlike you average street plod) is because we are still regarded as experts based on that training, experience and knowledge, and so they are perfectly qualified to determine whether someones driving falls below that of a reasonably safe competent driver, which is the test that has to be applied. Drivers though still have the option of rejecting the fixed penalty and contesting it through the courts, so it is not about the Police being Judge, jury and executioner, it is about experienced traffic cops making an expert judgement and bringing the lazy moron tosspots to book!
Appreciate what you are saying mate. Thanks for the inside info. And I can fully understand the frustrations that cops would have.
my personal opinion is that i think particular in car we can all get in our "safe zone" phones FFS most vehicles have hand free in them...... if not £10 will get one. text messages aren't important.... if they was important they would ring!!!! tailgating really annoys me .... so much, i gave a weeks driving ban at work over it due to one lads terrible driving..... meaning he got no overtime, i felt he drove far too close to car in front and was a risk to my health and other road uses. I would want his to get a ticket or fine, however i do think a word from the boys in blue would do him good.... personal i don't think the fine or the point system works as well as a B&*!*&$%g. have i been caught speeding yes, did it slow me down, yes for a bit. lane hogging, need pulling up definitely and the guy the bully the ways in queues.... however only any use if the cops are there at that time
my daughter is taking driving lessons at the moment and i am amazed at the things they do not have to do anymore to pass a test.. there is no real using of the gears to slow down to junctions etc any more , it is do all your braking , then put it into the gear that you will set off in .i am sure that will work out great the first time she drives in snow. (actually that has just pointed out to me why people no longer seem to be able to drive in snow.) what is more worrying though is ,they seem to be discouraging the use of indicators to pull up or set off .
my eldest is learning at the moment and i think it terrible what they learn... or lack of..... gears to brake no that what breaks are for.... i tried to explain it to her ... she said she would fail if she did that on her test
She is being taught correctly then. Gears to go, brakes to slow, and on an advanced driving test I fail those who use their gears to slow themselves down as it means a 50% loss of control whilst you change down and whilst reducing your speed when you want both hands on the wheel and there is the chance that the incorrect gear is selected. It is called block changing, selecting the correct gear for the appropriate speed and traffic conditions. There is also the other side of the coin, which says that it is a lot easier to replace a set of brake pads than it is a gearbox. And yes it does work in snow, in fact it works very well Many people say they were taught to use the gears to reduce their speed. Sorry, total B@llocks. using the gears to reduce speed was removed from the driving test back as far back as the 70's, because it was the one thing when I took my test in 1975 I was taught would be a failure, and then it was reiterated when I went onto do my advanced courses a few years later. It was the one thing the DSA got correct. As far as the use if indicators is concerned, again lazy drivers indicating out of habit and laziness. A signal is to signify that the driver "Intends" To Turn right Move to the right Turn left Move to the left Move to the left and stop. It is not a signal of achievement, it is a signal of intent and too many drivers do it at the wrong time and in the wrong place thereby conveying the wrong message to the recipients of those signals and then fail to understand why I hold them liable (or partly liable) when I have to do an investigation after a crash has occurred. So, without wishing to cause offence, what you have done is based on your experience actually shown that your own knowledge and understanding of driving is lacking by virtue of the criticism you have leveled at what your daughter has/is being taught, when in fact, it is your own lack of knowledge that is out of kilter. As I say, it is not meant to cause offence, I am simply trying to highlight how people like to think they know all the answers, when in fact they have a lot to learn still regardless of how long they have been driving pr riding or how much experience they have. Even with all my qualifications, I am still learning and I make mistakes (we all do), but people make their mistakes and then cannot accept that they are in the wrong when it goes pear shaped because they themselves do not have the knowledge to be able to learn from the mistakes they have probably made a million times before and got away with it.
Fair points raised TC and these have corrected my view of how it should be done ''these days'' I am old school and was brought up in the old mans wagon and years of watching him change down and also my test was pre 77 so its what i do now, and it still seems to make sense, ie going down a hill in the right gear against being in top gear with the foot on the brakes but if thats what is the correct way than so be it'' not that i can change mind you''.
I should have added that in addition to maintaining better control, it also reduces the number of gear changes that need to be carried out. Instead of going 5th to 4th to 3rd to 2nd and then possibly into 1st. Approach in (for example) 5th, reduce your speed on the brakes and then either stop at the hazrds, or if for example you have got the early view through good observation, say at a roundabout, having reduced your speed, 5th to 2nd. 1 gear change instead of 5 possibly more. Works every time, makes for a smoother drive, ensures that the driver is always in the correct gear and it provides greater flexibility to increase (and in some cases decrease speed) and it also saves excessive wear and tear on the gear box and clutch.
"so why did you crash into the other car then ?" "my brakes faded and i was not able to stop" "did you not think to use your gears to slow down ?" "no ,because i was taught that gears are for go, brakes are for slow" not everything that government depts write down is correct
OK, well clearly you are the expert on the subject and have a far better understanding of the dynamics of riding and driving than I do, let me ask you a question? When was the last time you ever heard of a car or driver suffering from brake fade or a complete loss of brakes? In 30 years of investigating crashes, I have come across it the grand total of just the once! And that was in the days of the Rover SD1 with the fully enclosed hubcaps and brake cooling vents that were blocked by the fog lights. Even if drivers were taught to use the gear box to slow down using the gears, the majority simply panic anyway. And as to your comment "not everything that government depts write down is correct" ? That has got sod all to do with any Government department, that rule was written by people far better qualified than me, you or any department. But then as an expert you know this anyway And I am not trying to be sarcastic or provocative, simply trying to make the point that it is the sort of attitude like the one expressed by yourself that creates many of the problems, because you know better.
i have had brake fade. anyone else on here ? total loss of brakes .. read the thread about honda wanting to know about total loss of brakes on the abs fireblades on this forum. ford focus cars also had a similar problem. they put run off lanes at the bottom of steep hills .. are they there just for people to park in and have picnics? how many crashes have you come across where the driver lost control because they were only 50% in control of their car because they were using the gears ? you tend to find that people who are better qualified do not understand common sense.
I have suffered complete hydraulic brake failure due to a failed slave cylinder seal on a Mk 2 Ford Escort. I managed to drive almost 10 miles remaining to work to diagnose and repair the fault, using only the gears and hand brake.
