Hi All; Is there any point in upgrading to SS brake lines in a C-ABS blade? I have a 2012 model with C-ABS and am having HUGE issues with the lever going soggy and moving all the way to the grip when slowing down in traffic. The dealer agreed to replace the front "power modulator" as well as the "valve unit". He suggested that while I'm at it I should upgrade to SS brake lines since it would be "easy" to do. I doubt it would be "easy", and I wonder if it would really make much difference in a "brake by wire" system (since all the braking is done by "power modulator" and the only "feel" in the lever is from the "stroke simulator". Has anyone done this? How did it work out? And, if anyone as actually figured out what the flaw is that causes the braking problem in the first place, please let me know as Honda has no clue. I've read all the posts about "theories" but none with a solution that has actually fixed the problem. Thanks in advance Amnesia
Not had any problem with my 2012 yet(touch wood) but if the dealer is going to be replacing those parts I would def have SS hoses fitted as they will be paying for the brake bleed. I guess you're right about lever feel but the SS hoses just look so much better and last longer.
Amnesia, Have a read through this, some info for you to maybe make your mind up to do it or not; http://1000rr.co.uk/mods-upgrades-accessories-products/10913.htm Barry
Yup, read it. I wasn't able to find the reference for the quote but I'd love to if you have a link: " Might be worth reading the article in this month's Fast Bike (technical section) regarding braided hoses on a C-ABS bike" My thinking was that the computer tells the "power modulator" to pump a specific amount of brake fluid out to the caliper depending on what the pressure sensor detects in the "stroke simulator" line. This is all calibrated for the "stock brake lines". I'm not sure how much "feedback" there is in this equasion, and I wonder how changing a variable like the brake line stiffness will affect performance (if at all). It seems that nobody has a clue how these C-ABS brakes actually work (including honda service techs) which really makes trouble shooting brake problems difficult, if not impossible!
Amnesia, I had issues with my c-abs system but after carrying out a FULL abs bleed, they have been fault less. I was in very heavy and slow moving traffic all along the A21 yesterday and not one hint of brake failure or soggyness. Before I did the full bleed on the brakes, the c-abs system would have failed within 5-10 mins of the engine temp reaching 100oc. If you haven't already had/done the "FULL" brake bleed and it needs to be the full brake bleed, this would be my the first port of call. Barry
Just posted up that article if you want to read http://1000rr.co.uk/mods-upgrades-accessories-products/10913-3.htm#post202706
+1 Pretty much the same thing as Barry. Most of my riding is commuting, the ABS just didn't like constant on/off braking especially filtering through slow traffic. Got the lever back to bars, ABS warning lights, the lot!. Had the callipers serviced and full bleed done by Honda and the issues still returned. Did the full bleed myself and the issues magically disappeared. I think the additional attention to detail owners will put in removes more air. The question is how does it get in there in the first place! I believe only the smallest amount of air will cause issues, it will obviously cause a sponginess but when the air gets into the vital abs bits then it will cause failures. Also another variant is suspension, make sure it is set up correctly. If it is off the wheels will potentially lose grip earlier and thus the ABS will also kick in eariler.
Thanks for the replies Actually, the first step was the dealer bled the brakes completely TWICE. Now I couldn't comment on the "quality" of the bleed (since it was the first time that they had bled a C-ABS system), but they assured me that they had followed the service manual to the tee, and it had taken about 4 hours each bleed, so I have to accept that they did it properly. Anyway, if they replace ALL components, they will have to bleed the system very carefully at that time. I did a little experiment and drove with the ABS fuse removed and the brakes are perfectly normal. I didn't find them poor as some have stated, just normal. That tells me that it's something in the ABS unit (on the ABS circuit side). Since the power modulator is not even connected to the levers, I think it's the mystery "stroke simulator" that's the problem. For the lever to go right down to the grip, the brake fluid in that part of the system has to go somewhere. Since the stroke simulator side of the circuit is a "dead end" above 6 kph, there's nowhere for it to go (other than into the stroke simulator itself). If it did somehow "leak" over to the other "normal brake" circuit, then it would have to somehow get back into the simulator circuit on the next "pumping" of the lever (since the level in the reservoir is not dropping) - which seems unlikely. I do notice that it doesn't seem to happen until the bike gets up to a good operating temperature, and really happens a lot in hot, stop and go traffic. I have never had the ABS light come on indicating that there is a fault with the system. My theory is this: Since the C-ABS system is pretty straight forward, and there is really no where for the brake fluid to go when the lever moves that far, the capacitance of the "stroke simulator" must be somehow increasing on that particular pull of the lever, and then returning to normal on the next one. Maybe its simply defective, or a poor design. Since Honda hasn't released any detail on how it actually works, I can only postulate. I've totally given up on the system, and will ride without the ABS fuse until the unit is replaced. Not what I'd expect from a "super bike". I'm still amazed that Honda would allow customers to ride around on bikes whose brakes can't be trusted. It must be a huge liability for the company. Just a matter of time..................... In Canada, Honda only lists 1000rr's with C-ABS for 2013. They are all coming that way, so they had better figure this one out, or there will be a lot of unhappy (and possibly injured) customers out there.
I find that a full bleed more than often needs to complemented with a bit of overnight pressurisation and a bit of extra purging. Give it a try http://1000rr.co.uk/maintenance/11853.htm
Slightly left field on this one, but for any owner dealing with VOSA in the UK, I have forwarded this link to Martin Ryder as further evidence of an underlying design issue.
Slick & Barry107; Thanks for all the advice. Sounds like you guys were in the same situation that I find myself in. Dealer has performed a FULL bleed twice and yet I still get the lever going to the grips after feathering it in hot traffic. I have always wondered if "the additional attention to detail owners will put in removes more air" and considered bleeding the system myself, but frankly, the whole process scares me. I am not all that keen to remove the radiator and exhaust, as well as raise the tank, which is apparently required to bleed the "front power modulator". How hard was it to do this? Also, it looks like the bleeding nipples on the "valve unit" are difficult to get at and would be almost impossible to "torque" afterwards.
Amnesia, A few have had dealers carry out a so called full bleed but still had the problem, thats why I did the bleed myself. I followed the c-abs bled manual which you can find on-line to download but this version doesn’t show the front power unit bled but it does mention it in the flow chart. First attempt: This was done following the pictures in the downloaded bleed manual. (Did not include bleeding the front power unit for the reason given above). Result: Good lever pressure for a while until the system got hot from heat soak. Second attempt: This was done following both the pictures and written procedure in the bleed manual. I also covered the front power unit protction shield which is metal in heat reflective tape as well as the metal brake fluid feed pipe. This runs across the front of the engine from the front power modulator. Result: No issues with the c-abs braking system whatsoever, even filtering through slow moving traffic and the engine running above 100oc for over 30mins.
Now that's what I've been waiting to hear - someone who's actually fixed the problem. Did you have to remove the radiator and exhaust to bleed the power unit? I've hear of someone putting spacers on the Power Unit mounts to move it away from the exhaust and get some air circulation and cooling, but I'm not sure how feasable this is since I've never had it apart to see the components.
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