As per the title, I've done some searching and havent quite got the answer I'm looking for, so I'm going to ask what I hope is a simple enough question to answer: When you corner do you keep any pressure on the bars? I've been riding for 2 years now but I've never been shown how to ride. The only instruction I got on cornering when I was learning was 'Look where you want to go'. My main gripe is that I feel that I am pushing my way around every corner (constant push-pressure on the inside grip) rather than flicking the bike over and letting it carve it's way around the bend with no further input. BUT I only think that the flick-leave alone method is correct from stuff I've read. I had to push (fight) the old SV around corners (wheel allignment problems) and I think that that bad habbit has transitioned it's way to the Blade. I want to get rid of any old habbits as soon as I can, so any info that my forumite friends can impart will be appreciated. As long as my cornering is safe and controlled then I'm not fussed about speed or kneedown, yet. I just want to be able to take the twisties better/correctly. (During the searching on the forum I found the TOTW2 PDF, so I'm looking at that whilst I eat my chicken sandwiches, so no need to direct me there).
We all counter steer, whether we realise it or not Stu. In order to initiate any turn, we, naturally begin to turn in the opposite direction to start the lean into the direction we want to go. If the turn radius is small enough, this first counter steer is enough to see you through it, the 'flick and leave it to it', you mentioned. As the speed increases or the turn radius tightens you need to create more input to maintain sufficient 'push forces' from your tyres to counter it. I think.....
Wow ken I'm impressed, beautifully put! For normal riding stu don't even think about what you will naturally do anyway, the laws of physics will take over anyway. Try a little action reaction, turn in to the corner and you will lift the lean angle and visa versa. As you get a feel your understanding will follow.
So are we saying here that at any sort of decent speed there will always be some countersteering pressure needed? I was under the impression that once you get the bike over you could, if you got everything right (although I wouldn't suggest it) essentially 'let go' of the handlebars and the bike would carve it's way around the corner. Having never been in that position I can't comment. One thing that I did notice was the tip to keep your forearms level with the ground when cornering. I've never heard of this before so I may have a crack on the way home later to see what it does / how it feels. I try to keep my arms in that position when I'm generally riding but tend to tense up for twisties which takes me out of this position, which I know is a no-no. Everyday is a school day.
I think, so I'm waiting to be shouted down for it if I'm wrong, that it's all countersteering. It's just that at some point in the process, the physical input becomes noticeable over the reflexive, more natural input. That's when you become aware that you're ' pushing your nose through the turn. So at low speeds and shallow turns you just drop the bike into the lean and that's sufficient to get round, but in order to make the bike drop there has to be an initial countersteer, even if it's just rolling your hips in the opposite direction to start the fall. That's instinctively what you do. When that first push becomes insufficient you just top up the input by leaning on the bars.
Thats always been my understanding too... many people think weight transfer gets the bike cranked over, but thats been proven to largely be rubbish as weight alone cannot counteract the massive gyroscopic forces produced by those fast-spinning wheels. Counter-steering gets the bike cranked over (via gyroscopic procession, I believe) and at a given angle I believe it will stay at that angle (unless speed changes)... obviously any changes to that angle will need some counter-steering input. But maybe we both have the same skewed view of things....... never been brave enough to let go of the handlebars mid-corner to put it to the test!!!
Ok let me clarify a few things for you guys. Yes, all steering is done by countersteering. This is to initiate the turn, to get to the lean angle you want. Everyone does it, consciously or not, and yes, knowing about it and applying it consciously makes for more control over the bike. Stu, you are right in thinking that the bike should maintain it's lean angle in a corner, BUT there are a few caveats. Let me explain... Let's take a left hand corner, let's make it a long sweeping one, not just an 90 degree intersection, but a long corner that you would be leaned over for a while... You would be off the gas normally approaching the corner, which allows for more weight on the front tyre, which equates to more grip, also steeper steering head angle, so that when you DO countersteer, the bike responds to the steering input better... So, ok you pick you turn point, you look into the corner to see where the hell it is going, and at the turn point you would push the left bar to lean the bike to the left. What happens now, is that if you kept applying pressure to the left bar, you would steer yourself into the ground. When you push the left bar, the wheel itself turns to the right, right?!?! But when you reach your desired lean angle, you SHOULD be able to totally relax your arms, and the wheel actually goes from pointing to the right (due to your left bar push) and the wheel now turns INTO the corner by itself, due to rake and trail. (you can see this if you hold a bicycle by the seat and lean it to the left, the front wheel will turn to the left.) However, the only way this will happen the way I describe is by getting on the gas, cracking the throttle... Getting on the gas STABILIZES your lean angle, once no more steering inputs have been made... So, push left bar until your desired lean angle, then release (push, and release) and crack the throttle. That opening of the throttle is going to keep your lean angle. BUT, if it is such a long corner then if you only crack the throttle and keep it there, then at some point you will stop accelerating. This will put more weight on the front and in effect make the bike stand up a bit and make you go wide. Only way is to KEEP the weight on the back tyre by ROLLING on the throttle, gradually. (TOTW says 0.1 G... about the same as a smooth roll on in fifth gear on a bike over 600cc) Also has something to do with teh fact that leaned over your tyres are scrubbing so you lose speed, so even a constant throttle when leaned over you are LOSING speed. Rolling on the throttle throughout the remainder of the corner is the only way to maintain the weight distribution towards the rear (40% front / 60% rear, based on size of tyres that can take their share of the cornering load...) While rolling on the throttle you should be able to have your arms very relaxed, as your outside leg should be locked onto the tank to get your weight off the bars. Handlebar grip pressure should be like holding a bird so it can't fly away, but not enough to squish it. This is based on a neutral steering bike, which the Blade is. So, things that would make you have to keep bar pressure to go around this corner are... Poor throttle control - static throttle or coming off the throttle puts weight on front tyre and effectively countersteers you upright, pushing you WIDE. Improperly inflated tyres - very common - soft front tyre will cause you to have to maintain bar pressure to keep the bike leaned over - soft tyre creates more contact patch which increases friction and drag, and effectively pushes the tyre through the contact patch and steers the bike to upright. I am no expert but these are the main points. Stu, keeping your forearms parallel to the ground allows for more efficient steering, because you are pushing the bars around the steering axis, not trying to push the bar into the ground (effectively trying to bend the clipons... which is a waste of energy and very ineffective to steer the bike, as you HAVE to steer the tyre in order to steer the bike, so getting your body low on the tank and forearms parallel to ground allows to easier steering because the bars are meant to steer in those directions...) I won't go into pivot steering as that is irrelevant to the OP. Hope this helps.
If you let go of the handlebars, you will chop the throttle and that will countersteer you upright, and you will go WIDE. However, if you had a means of maintaining throttle, then you can. I take my left hand off the bars now and then, while leaned over in a left, no probs...
Yes, wasnt talking (or even thinking) about the throttle, merely about the act of steering...... although that would have made for an interesting watch if I had tried it!!!!
Its interesting to note that a bike will go from upright to max lean by counter steering only 10mm! (movement of the bars); not much is it.
Oh, if you want to test the fact that after the initial push on the bars that the wheel does turn INTO the corner after releasing the pressure, you feel this alot more in slow speed maneuvres...
Another top Tony tip....... When counter steering, tense up (just a little) the opposite thigh; this helps give something to counter against & prevents your body turning to "uncounter" you. Its a mind fcuk init
Matrix - what an amazing post. You have sucessfully told me what I needed to hear. In all the searching I've done nothing has explained it so well. I think I may owe you a pint That's what I love about this forum. So many nice members willing to spend time (that post must have taken ages to write) helping a relative noob out. I've a warm fuzzy feeling inside now.
Yes that is the pivot steering I mentioned at the end of my long post. Especially useful when you are going fast, keeps you stable on the bike at the same time helps to use your whole body (leg, core, upper body and arms) to push against the strong forces needed to turn the bike at high speeds... Tense the outside thigh, I also point the toe like you are going on tippy toes, so you also push that outside thigh into the tank... This all helps to create a stable platform so you can be relaxed at the bars...
I also agree that a track day would really help me out. It would help me better understand how to ride and the limits of the bike. My only concern is the fact that I've no-one to go with as I have no local biker mates and going to one of those things on my own seems really daunting (and the cost, where to go, etc etc etc) - but that's for a whole other thread.
