I think the owners handbook states that applying either brake for more than 30 (might be 20) seconds continually will cause fault mode.
I've noticed since the weather has been dry that the rears tend to lift under heavy braking rather than fronts losing traction. The way the ABS handles the braking for these scenarios feels very different.
Its very worrying that a monster such as Honda deem this to be acceptable and even try to hush up people. My unwavering Honda love (FFS i started a website 17 yr ago http://www.zippysworld.co.uk has been severely dented by this CBR, I am planning to trade her in at the 2 yr mark as im worried about the longevity of this model as an EVERYDAY commuter and weekend thrash. I allways bang on about my last blade being 15 yrs old and 73000 mile in when she was sold. NO WAY will this fragile, low quality version do that! so disappointed I have even been heard mentioning Triumph as a replacement. I know one things for sure I will be paying attention to fixtures and fittings when i buy next time. Im paying £246 a month to be disappointed! it ruins what is a great engine. imo
Just checked... Can't find anything like that in mine...Says you need to use the right sized tyres or it goes mad. It does warn of a change in brake lever feel immediately after turning the ignition to on and after braking to a stop and applying the brakes again... I get the feeling they implemented the 'braking to a stop' bit wrong... And just did after using the brakes and trying to use them again... Or maybe the fix for the servo not stopping was to stop it anyway after 30 seconds... No matter what... (Hey, I work in IT I have heard stupider things)
On the plus side you can get it to turn off the ABS by applying the brakes while accelerating from 0 to 50km/h (20mph). H
Just to add to this, I think the main problem is the amount of conflicting information that is available on both the internet and from Honda and their dealers. It leaves many owners to try to find answers to problems and draw conclusions that may or may not be correct. For what its is worth IMO and from my experience there are 2 distinct issues here. 1. The ABS circuitry staying active after turning off the ignition, this can be replicated quite easily by certain low speed 'parking manoeuvres. This is documented elsewhere on the forum, Honda have upgraded the ABS ECU twice, and the current unit has fixed the issue. 2. The brake lever suddenly coming back to the grip and feeling of loss of braking effort. There is no doubt this occurs is certain scenarios, I have had it several times in lower speed filtering riding, when you tend to just feather the brake, IMO it appears to be a quirk of the C-ABS system, and although the 1st time it happens its a shocker, either releasing and reapplying the front brake lever works, so does stamping on the rear pedal, the bike does stop in the instances I have had. The other more frustrating issue is air in the system, I am sure many of us have bled brakes countless times over the years in short time with perfect results, with the C-ABS system there appears to be 2 ways of bleeding the brakes, the 'normal way' of pumping through fresh fluid from the reservoir and bleeding through the caliper nipples, or by following the 22 page manual as discussed above by Pete. Which involves putting the bike into a service mode and then the ABS ECU is updated by a series of functions on the levers, so that's how it knows if the whole bleed process is followed or not, and here you also bleed out from the modulators as well as the calipers. I personally do not know if you bleed the old fashioned way without using the modulators bleed valves, if you are purging all the fluid or not. What is clear is that the C-ABS system is very sensitive to air, what is hard to understand is if the system has a tendency to be able to trap more air than a non ABS system and if so, then when it gets to a certain level it becomes a major issue. So from this Honda appear to be suggesting that on time full bleeding of the system is essential, and if this is followed no issues will occur other than the 'feathering' issue discussed, which means you basically have to learn to ride around that issue. My recent experience is of both returning to the bike with a flat battery multiple times and the 'feathering issue'. My bike has been serviced last week and my dealer took up the case with Honda, the bike is 1 month shy of 3 years, so out of warranty, but with a full dealer service history. Honda allowed goodwill on replacing the ECU FOC, and also paid for a full brake bleed, which it was my understanding was not straight forward, and had to be completed twice. Since then the brakes are night and day from when I purchased the bike last June and before it was serviced, in saying that, they were OK, but IMO for a superbike just OK nothing better, now the are eye poppingly powerful, so what ever happened at the bleed process has improved the modulation and overall stopping performance. ( I had already replaced pads and cleaned calipers, pistons etc, the dealer did not do any work on these). The C-ABS for a all year round rider is potentially a very useful trick to have in your box (although I have ridden 12 months a year for the previous 35 years without it) , it is very difficult to know how well the system is working or even what it is doing as it is so smooth compared to older ABS systems. But the nub appears to be the complexity of maintaining the system and also the fact that even Hondas agents have issue with bleeding the system, this is not right and needs to be addressed in future models. Nothing will change on 09 onwards models, what you have got is what you stay with. I think Honda would do their reputation no harm by making a service statement as to exactly how this system should be maintained and clear up any confusion, even my year 10 manual does not state the bleeding of brakes is in any way out of the ordinary. The one last point I have not covered, and is in the text above from Pete, and is seized up on by many American and Aussie riders, is the placement of the front modulator and the effects of very high temps generated in this area, and maybe causes brake fluid boiling which in turn introduces air into the system, I think its a very plausible suggestion and one that Pete states his dealer has alluded that Honda are looking into. Again only my opinion, but if anyone takes a C-ABS bike on track and subjects it to track conditions, this should amplify the issue, so it would be interesting to hear from anyone that tracks a C-ABS bike and if they have had any braking issues on or, after being on track if its used as a road bike, and if they regularly bleed their own brakes, how they do it. So that's my experience with this and some of my own thoughts that may or may not be accurate!
Well said kentblade. I have to agree... Except one thing... I don't follow why boiling of the brake fluid would introduce air. That would require dissolved air in the brake fluid in the first place. Which would be bad... Because you'd expect that to come out anyway. I would have though brakefluid was pretty much free of contaminants like that (And water). OK, maybe 2... The problems with the lever I regard as a serious design flaw. One that should have a warning in big red letters saying something like WARNING! These brakes will do their best to KILL you if you use them continuously at low speed! The ABS on my cars gets subjected to this every day. You can't get around it on the motorways. They don't fail. I don't accept that the C-ABS system should be any different in this regard. I do think they could fix this with updated software though as I'd think it's firmware (embedded software) not hardware performing this mis-feature. H
Kiwi, I appreciate you had an ABS experience the other day and it ain't nice, but I do not think the brakes are really out to get you To answer your question, we all know brake fluid is hygroscopic, and as it ages the level of water in the brake fluid increases, although brake fluid has a high boiling point, it can and does boil and just like a kettle it produces steam...not truck loads of it but in the context of your braking system, enough to cause an issue, as the system operates water vapour/droplets from the produced steam are saturated into your brake fluid, until it reaches a point where the system is loaded with both air and water, then its a viscous circle, the more water in the fluid, the quicker it boils, the more steam produced....and I don't need to go on...ie your fluid is cack and needs changing...thats how air and water get into your system.....along with the fact that by default your system is not totally sealed from any air, there is an air level above the fluid in the master cylinders, already and waiting for both time and temperature to weave their magic. When I raced, my brakes were fully bled after every race, due to the severe temps that they endured, just as was the engine oil. I was shite at Physics at school, but the first time I boiled my brakes and headed straight into the armco...I become quite interested in that area of science
The air and water has to come from somewhere... That wee bit of air in the reservoir isn't enough... Unless it's not sealed of course. In which case I agree, your SOL. H
I did some work on my system recently which included caliper clean, sensor clean, pad clean & fluid change & have to say that the brakes felt superb afterward - until it happened again! I had completed around 100 miles & just finished a few miles off twisty bits (cat & fiddle) & the brakes were flawless. Coming into town, I had to navigate a series of 3 roundabouts with slow moving traffic; my system lost braking pressure 3 times in 2 minutes & was then perfectly fine again afterward. I have already installed a manual overide switch so will probably run without the abs switched off for a while; that or install conventional lines as I have no confidence that the brakes will always work predictably.
When you say you did a fluid change did you just bleed them 'the conventional way' or by the 22 page guide? I'm planning on doing a fluid change next week before going across to the continent - 12k miles on my blade now and since changing the front pads a week ago the fluid that has inevitably been squeezed back into the reservoir is a bit dark Never had an issue with my 2012 brakes, although at first startup I can sometimes feather the lever enough to get it to come back to the bars, but never whilst riding.
I bled them in the conventional way introducing the new fluid to the res but with the ignition switched on (just in case it needed to be on; I dont know that it does when bleeding conventionally on abs equipped bikes). I bled from the 3 calipers & also from the MC; was just very careful not to introduce air otherwise its probably our friend the 22 pager.
Mines in at Honda on Tuesday for a brake fluid change and Quickshifter setup, hopefully after that the brakes will be spot on as I'm off to Europe on Thursday. I've kind of learnt to accept the spongy nature of the brakes at the moment, having had no major issues (lever to bar) to talk of. I hope they improve though after the fluid change.
What has your dealer quoted in terms of time/cost for bleeding the brakes if you don't mind me asking, as that will give a clue to how they will do them, the Honda 22 page way is around the 4 hour mark.
Swiss, I would love to know from anyone on here, if bleeding the conventional way, purges all the old fluid from the system inc the modulators, I do not understand that yet.
Looking at the diagrams in the 22 page manual, the way I see it is just bleeding at the caliper won't clear the fluid in the valve or power units. The fluid will flow directly from the resevoir to the caliper. This is what happens during normal braking the rest of the circuit only coming into play when the ABS is triggered by a wheel sensor. There are 3 other bleed nipples for each brake you need to bleed from to fully replace all the fluid. I still think a professional mechanic, using a brake bleeding kit, who's done the job before should be able to do it in under 4 hours.
Well they are doing it by the book you would hope....I get p**sed off when my car goes in for a service and the quote £60 for brake fluid change...£300 is outrageous....who knows what the Japs were thinking of when they designed this system...it definitely was not servicing costs.
