or it could be poor throttle control in the other direction too ..... being too greedy with the throttle ? making up for a poor entry speed at turn in, maybe due to a slow steering rate ... tense arm putting to much pressure on the inside bar which is countersteering to the outside... maybe caused by holding on too tight ... relaxing is the key or it could be your suspension setting... not enough compression damping on the rear making the front sit up when your rolling on the gas.. (compounded if your being greedy with the throttle).. or too much rebound not allowing the rear to return but its most likely throttle control get that pdf read and understand machine requirements and think about what is causing the bike to not hold a line what is it you are you doing that goes against the machine requirements if after reading totw II, I, and maybe the science of sportsbike riding, (and maybe roadcraft), if you can't figure out what is going wrong... then get some advanced lessons .. you'll enjoy the twisties much more and most likely be safer too
I had a minor revelation on the ride home last night: Taking into consideration everything that I'd read in this thread I realised that I didn't crank on the beans when I was in a turn. I'd keep the throttle as constant as I could and only give it some welly when I was out of the corner. I tried on a few bends to turn on the power (gradually) a lot earlier, and this simple little change made a difference; I found that once the power was on I did not have to counter steer as much and the bend seemed a lot smoother. OK this could all be in my head and nothing may have actually happend - maybe a bit of a positive thinking taking over, but I really did feel better for putting on the power earlier in the bend. I'll have to have another go this weekend to see if I'm actully deluding myself or not (didn't bring her out due to the zero visability fog that was everywhere). Thanks again to everyone who has contributed to this thread - maybe we should collaborate and write a book
Keith Codes books and video completely changed the way I ride. I've always been a very inquisitive person, I need to know how stuff works, so when I was learning to ride and was first introduced to counter steering instead of just doing it I wanted to know how it works and why it works, it's all about the mechanics with me. My instructor couldn't really explain it so I had to find out. Watching the twist video (several times and counting) taught me the science behind it. Just leaning alone will barely make the bike change direction but by leaning into a bend you unintentionally counter steer and it's this action that actually gets you round. Most riders therefore assume it's the action of leaning alone but in the video he sets up a pait of static bars the rider holds onto and leaning produces virtually no movement. He even hangs off the bike and jumps up and down on one peg, still with little effect. yet two up with the rider holding the static bar the passenger was able to drastically alter the direction of the bike pushing on the normal bar with one finger!! Once in a corner even at constant throttle, cornering forces and wind speed will serve to slow you, centrifugal force effects the bike as it slows forcing it toward upright and you wide in the corner. By constantly rolling the throttle on (not pinning it), the bike maintains the 60-40% balance it needs and the centrifugal force holds the line without needing to correct line etc. The flicking action is actually having your body position correct before you start the turn, on the track (or a relatively sharp road bend) you position yourself, (one cheek on the seat) in preparation to turn, at the turn point the act of counter steering throws the bike over into the turn and it looks and feels a lot neater than trying to steer and position at the same time. You're planted on the seat, not moving or Destabilizing the bike, and the bike just gets on with what you want in to do. Moving around, being stiff on the bike are all unnecessary rider inputs that throw the bike off line and make the experience a lot less smooth. Whether they realise it or not all riders turn with counter steer, the ones who look the smoothest and most accomplished are the ones who understand it. Seriously watch the twist video a couple of times, read the book, practise and above all get on a track day, it'll all improve your cornering no end. I'll now prepare to be shot down!!
I have always done things like counter steering, looking for vanishing points etc I thought they are skills that should naturally come to everyone riding motorcycles in a spirited fashion.....maybe im wrong?
Thank god we only take Keith Code's advice regarding bike riding cos I think his idea of growing facial hair is a bit naff. Perhaps he's a Frank Zappa fan??
I really Like this bit which I will copy paste here... I can read this man's articles all day long too!!! The superbike school articles are really really thought provoking. Here's a little piece of one called Holding Your Line... written by Keith Code. Run Wide Adjustments Here are some classic errors and problems that counter your efforts to maintain a predictable line: Throttle errors: 1. You roll on the gas too soon. Before it is fully leaned into the turn. 2. You roll on the gas too aggressively. This over-extends the forks and increases speed too much, both make it run wide. 3. You roll on a little bit and stop. That alters your line. This counter-steers the bike up (wide again) when weight transfers forward. 4. You go on and off the gas in the turn. That makes the line unpredictable and it widens it. Line Errors 5. You start into the turn too early, forcing a wider line through it . 6. You start into the turn too far to the inside, again this forces a wider line through the middle and exit of the turn. 7. The turn is too much of a decreasing radius turn. Do it in constant or increasing radius turns until you get the hang of it. The Usual Bike Setup Errors 8. You have an overly stiff a spring in the front of the bike. That holds the front up too high and makes it want to run wide. 9. You have too much compression damping in the front end of the bike holding the front up too high. This makes the bike want to run wide. 10. The rear ride height of the bike is too low. This rakes the front out and tends to make it run wide. 11. The tires are worn and you have to fight the bike a bit to hold it in the turn. This also makes it run wide. 12. Too much rebound in the rear and too little in the front. This holds the back down and the front up. Wide again.
slight long post coming up.. (having to break it into two posts due to the fourm limits on post length .. but I think some may find it useful... put in together a few years ago Machine Requirements once in a turn the throttle is rolled on smoothly throughout the remainder of the turn roll on just enough to maintain a 40/60 weight balance front/rear, think about the size of your tires contact patches which tyre is designed to carry more weight too greedy on the throttle and you'll run wide, not enough throttle and you've have too much weight on the front tyre... its the rear that does the steering once you are in a bend, it is also the tyre that provides the lion share of stability when in a bend the worse thing you can do is brake/come off the throttle. Both will cause the bike to stand up and go wide and add in-stablility if you think the bike steers to the inside when you come off the throttle, you are counter steering to the inside of the bend and increasing your lean angle (possibly not what you want when you think you are running out of road/lean angle)... thankfully your bikes suspension is designed to be at its most compliant (middle of its travel) when rolling on smoothly throughout a turn ... therefore chopping the throttle or being greedy with the throttle takes your suspension out of it ideal range ... which means it isn't able to cope with imprefections on the road surface .. which in turn could lead to instability for this reason it is important to setup your sag figures correctly for you weight ... when your suspension is in the ideal range it is providing maxmium grip and stability when provide machine requirements with good throttle control the throttle is rolled on asap 40/60 weight balance is when the bike is most stable in a bend (due to contact patch and suspension) , when do you want the bike to be most stable in a bend, asap thats when! once you have completed the steering, roll on the throttle ASAP, roll on smoothly to maintain stablity throughout the remainer of the turn only one steering input is the ideal when entering a bend additional steering inputs just upsets your stability in a bend (50 pencing, wobbling round) holding on too tight to the bars or too stiff (not relexed) can lead to additional unwanted steering inputs which un-stabalise the bike ... so be loose on the bars .. once steering is complete if you are correctly rolling on your bike will hold a line without additional steering inputs... some bends will require steering before the actual turn in point.. this is positional steering counter steer everyone counter steers.. otherwise we'd all end up in a field ... before riders find out about counter steering it is a sub concuss action... make it a concuss action .. elbows level with your clipons is the most effective position to counter steer from, as you are working at 90 deg to the headstock .. want to go left.. push the left bar forward.. want to go right.. push the right bar forward (exception to this is picking the bike up.. see below) don't waste your time applying pressure down onto your bars... this does nothing but tire you out http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3nRUeEkS644 counter steer as quickly as possible a goal of every corner should be to get round with the bike as stable as possible by counter steering as 'quickly as possible' you will use less lean more upright = bigger contact patch = more grip = more stability... the quicker you can counter steer the less lean angle is required for any given bend.. when riders start learning to counter steer.. they steer quicker, the real trick is to steer as quickly as possible (taking into consideration road conditions of course.. hence the as 'possible') ... once you can counter steer quickly you can get onto a line which a slow turning rate would have had you running wide and off the road picking the bike up also remember to steer the bike upright coming out of the corner.. often forgot about which results in lazy steering on the exit.. the quicker the bike is upright the quicker you can do whatever you like with the fun control (throttle).. steer it upright ... again a single steering input is ideal to maintain stablity so how do you 'pick up' the bike coming out of a bend ? you bring the inside bar towards you as this gives to greater control.. of course rolling on the throttle at the same time pushing the outside bar does have the same effect, but isn't as effective and remember you are hanging off to the inside at this point.. pushing the outside bar is not great as your arm will be over extended and not offer the same control as the inside bar so when do you start the pickup ? normally after the apex of the turn ... (to do it from the apex you'd have to be spinning the rear.. we wish ...) http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5cbQoW3rk2o hanging off move into position on the bike before the turn, hang off before braking ... 'kiss the mirror...' this puts your head in a good position to look through the bend and your body position should also be correct when your kissing the mirror half a bum off the seat is the right amount... not full on monkey impression hanging off .. by hanging off you require less lean which means you have a bigger contact patch = more grip = more stability, do not attempting to hang off and steer at the same time (everyone does this when they first attempt to gykd), it just un-settles the bike, hence, move into position before the bend is ideal.. hanging off brings us back to our goal of going round the bend using less lean.. (ride in the straight line.. and hang off... what happens? you have to lean the bike to continue in a straight line) when your 'picking the bike up' maintain the hanging off position so you still have the benefits of the reduced lean angle due to hanging off.. moving your arse/body and picking up the bike at the same time reduces stability http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=sxODoscChNo http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=sxb5nRufuZ8 body position how do you sit on the bike ? right up against the tank/against the back rest ? how do you move into a hang off position ? how do you moved from one side to the other in a S bend ? there should be a gap between your privates and the tank ... why is this ? well sit on your bike... right up against the tank... now move into a hangoff position ... notice you have rotated around the tank slighty, you are twisted ? but more importantly, your outside leg which should be firmly against the cutout in your tank isn't... your leg has come away from the tank instead of being in full contact and you are unstable now do the same but with a gap between you and the tank ... your leg should be firmly seated in the tank cutout when your leg is firmly seated into the tank cut out.. you are well supported and have maximum stablity why is this important ? if your torso is not supported by the tank in a bend how will you be supporting you body ? you'll be holding on via the bars ... no doubt tense .. holding on too tight .. and adding unwanted steering inputs .. (you'll tend to hang off the inside bar which countersteers you to the outside of the corner) when moving into the hang off position... use your legs to move into position and slide across the seat, this will avoid unwanted steering input... do not use your arms to move into position http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=oLcejqZYIo0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zt9lB-LErQ4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=eHJY74495xs http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hEi0HtalGpU
balls of your feet if your using the balls of your feet it is easier to apply pressure to the pegs (one reason why sports bike pegs are higher), this serves two purposes,1 your moving you weight closer to the bikes center of gravity and making the bike stable, and also makes it easier for you to use your legs as a second set of shock absorber.. and you won't be scraping youe toes everywhere pivot steering apply pressure to the outside peg (this is then your main pivot point, hence the term pivot steering), this moves your weight as close to the center of gravity as possible and this creates a stable bike (ever seen rossi take his inside foot off the peg goto into a corner...? wheres most of his weight.. the outside peg) holding on be relaxed, like your legs use your arms as 2nd shock absorbers, you should be able to draw circles using your elbows when you are relaxed .. don't hold on too tight... a sign you are not relax is your arms tensing... when they tense.. vibes from the engine are passed through the bar into your body.. relax and the vibes will disappear by hanging off correctly and gripping the tank you will not have to grip the bars and will be eaiser to relax which increases stability .. also being loose on the bars allows the bike to self correct ... you holding on too tight prevents this plan your rolloff don't charge, plan your throttle roll off charging is when you have those.. 'oh ****.. I'm going to quick into this bend.... brake... panic.. brake .....steer' and you make it round the bend with your heart about to jump out of your chest...charging normally results in you over braking..standing the bike up.. going straight... taking the corner slowly ... so to avoid charging.. plan you roll off approaching a bend to maximise your stablity, just as you plan the roll on through the bend ... charging is exciting.. but not quick, smooth or stable vision, keep your vision wide practice moving your attention from object to object in your field of vision without moving your eyes (the mind can move a lot quicker than your eyes)... you have a limited amount of attention.. learn to only focus on what you need to... and ignore what you don't.. IE don't waste you attention on something that you don't need to know about.. looking into the distance it is easier to keep your vision wide it is true... you head where you look.. so look where you want to go line a good line on the road is one that provides the best view of the road ahead and allows the throttle to be rolled on smoothly through out the bend with the bike as upright as possible to ensure the bike is as stable as it can be.. riding on the road is about vision... if you can't see where your going you can't get there safely (a very common error is turning in too early as it feels safer (normally happens when you start to pick up pace), turning in early is normally coupled with lazy slow steering rate which means additional lean angle is required... and by turning in too early leads to roll off errors, steering corrections as the line through the bend is wrong...roll on errors...and a little panic) decreasing radius and double apex bends are slightly different to a standard bend ... by turning in to early you are effectively changing a standard bend into a decreaseing radius bend (I only know of 1 really nasty decreasing radius bends in essex.. thankfully...) http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1cj2UNpU-B4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zQo9Yg0hxBk turning in when do you decide when to steer? do you wait until you are in the bend? do you decide to turn as you feel you are running out of road..? pick a turn in point... well before you reach it..(ideally also pick an exit point too)... you then don't need to think about it when you reach it.. you reach the turn in point and you perform your single steering input as quickly as possible... don't look at the point you've picked as you approach it... you'll know when you reach it without needing to look at it.. by the time you reach your selected turn in point you should be looking through the bend at/for the exit point picking your turn in point will also help you plan your braking/throttle roll off/rollon/pickup to maximise stablity http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fO8zSjhS_Sk http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=T8KBWUkTBy8 road position on right hand bends, you should be as far left as possible on the approach... on left hand bends you'll be as far right as possible on the approach ... GET THE BEST VIEW OF THE ROAD AHEAD .. (if going on the opposite side of the road for left handers gives you a better view and it is safe to do so... then i do it.. your increased vision round the bend means you'll see anything coming and have plenty of time to move back to your side of the road, if something is coming) the deeper you go into a bend before steering the more you can see round a corner.... as you learn to pivot steer as quickly as possible you can go deeper into the bend = more vision ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=663SvAj4Z9o http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=IiOjAJQzm1k http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PqNchndj0tw overtaking on the road think of your bike as a gun... before you shoot a gun.. you take aim... then pull the trigger a bike is the same ... Lets say your behind a van and can't see the road ahead for a safe overtake ... dropping back increases your view... the next step is to get a even better view of the target (when you want to finished the overtake) ... don't accelerate.. just pull into the other lane to get a view of the road, if something is coming you can very quickly return to your side of the road (something that would be a little tricky if you had pulled alongside the van).... once on the opposite side of the road you should have a great view... take aim... pick where you want to be after the overtake ... then pull the trigger.. and head for the target .. job done avoid/never overtaking when there is a junction/entrance on the right.. the vehicle your planning on passing might just take that right and be late indicating... or may just not indicate ... remember... 'everyone is out to get you' .. you need to think for yourself and everyone else pointing and shooting is easier the more powerful your bike is.. very often you would not notice someone using the point and shoot overtaking method as it can happen very quickly and smoothly (all depends on the situation) going slow to go fast you'll often hear this, but what does it really mean ? surely going slow is going slow and going fast is going fast..? well yes (and er no) going slow to go fast is about building confidence and beating the survival reactions that stop us as riders from matching machine requirements for example many riders will try to keep up with more experienced riders and end up forgetting about machine requirements as the red mist comes down .. this could lead to charging and numerous other rider errors can follow as a chain reaction... feeling like they are going to fast, turning in to early as a result, using a lazy steering rate, having to use excessive lean due to lazy turning, not hanging off = even more lean require, steering and hanging off at the same time, not picking a turning point = picking the turn in point when they are at it = not knowing where they will end the corner = mid corner corrections, which could lead to throttle errors = even more unstable bike which is running out of lean angle...'panic' and as all of this is occurring there is a rapid reduction in free attention, target fixation may creap in, the rider may experience tunnel vision... basically not alot of fun which will make the rider tense... etc..etc.. i think you get the picture... most riders have been there at one point or another so you need to go slow to go fast... take a corner at a pace you know is 100% safe (so no survival reactions are triggered) a speed that allow you to ride in such a way you fulfill machine requirements.. ride at 80% not 90% next time you take the bend you should be able to take it at slightly higher revs without any survival reactions kicking in (as you were fine last time).. in time you'll be fly round bends if you are doing everything right your riding will feel slow, smooth and stable , unlike charging which will feels quick ...but actually isn't (its exciting though) http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=V4ZceBHbgTo track days best place to progress .. as you can just think about machine requirements and not have to use any of your limited attention on road craft stablity - are you most comfortable on the bike when it is stable or unstable ? how many of the points above are designed to maximise stablity..? is stablity key to improving your cornering confidence?[/QUOTE]
i'll fix the tube links later edit / forum only lets me embed one video per post changing them to links
Rossi takes his leg off the peg to make himself wider and harder to pass Up the inside.doesn't make him corner better.Mcn along with some top track Riders tested that theory.
Not according to many... apparently it shifts your centre of gravity back quite appreciably so helping to keep the rear on the floor... as was explained by some riding guru in the build up to a MotoGP some months back...... fairly sure it wasn't April the first......
so then this guru knows something rossi and the data recorders dont When asked - as usual - at the pre-race press conference at the Sachsenring why he takes his foot off the peg - Rossi gave his standard answer, that he didn't know, but that it felt a natural thing to do, and it felt like it helped him brake. But he also revealed a fascinating detail: When he and Jeremy Burgess look at the data, and compare the corners where he does his signature leg wave with the same corner when he leaves his foot on the peg, there is no difference at all. The data shows exactly the same braking time and force, the same weight distribution, no difference whatsoever. sure it wasnt april the first
The conversation wasn't about Rossi but why the technique has proliferated amongst the riders... and that's the answer that was given by he guys they asked...... sounds reasonable to me from a physics viewpoint, but ultimately I'm just repeating what they said, so don't jump out of your pram.
im not jumping out of any pram lol im also only reposting what I read and seen too. it was BSB guys that were trying the leg out stlye and said it had no advantage braking or cornering wise and that it was more about making yourself wider in a corner even if the riders doing it wanted to admit it or not. weighting the pegs doesnt affect handing, go look up the no BS bike that California superbike school uses.
wow you guys are technical, i'd fall off thinking about 10% of the stuff on this thread whilst trying to ride.... (if i could be arsed to read it all) my method is thus, go as fast as you feel comfortable without falling off. if you fall off, you've gone too fast and are not comfortable. *WARNING* - not everyone's comfortable and fast are the same as others....
Personally, I believe that the reason for putting your leg out when entering any corner at race speed is so you can, at least, hit the ground running.
